Strength over Tactics? why?! - Guild Wars Forums

Nikki Moonlight · Oct 30, 2005, 03:08 PM // 15:08

why do i see everyone saying "if that shield was str based instead it'd sell a lot more" and stuff along those lines when IMO Tactics is superior to Strength in everyway, more stances, healing signet, more shouts, and easier to survive with, i just don't get the fuss over Strength

DreamCatcher · Oct 30, 2005, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

why do i see everyone saying "if that shield was str based instead it'd sell a lot more" and stuff along those lines when IMO Tactics is superior to Strength in everyway, more stances, healing signet, more shouts, and easier to survive with, i just don't get the fuss over Strength

...And don't forget that because strength is a warrior only attribute while tactics is available for any X/W, strength shields are useless to any profession but the warrior.

Good question, and a question of which I'd like to know the answer of aswell.

Dragon Worm · Oct 30, 2005, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Myabe its because strength helps u do more dmg and people think if strength helps u do more dmg that itll help protect them more, or because evry warrior uses strength

Banebow · Oct 30, 2005, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Probably because of the whole warrior attitude of needing to do a lot of damage (you know the kind: "Me Smash!", monk: "I need energy!", warrior: "Chaaaarge!" strength makes you do slightly more damage when using attack skills) or, if they plan on using their pve character in pvp, strength is usualy prefered to tactics.

Nikki Moonlight · Oct 30, 2005, 03:22 PM // 15:22

i just don't get strength, i'm a primary warrior..put points into strength to see if the armour penetration did extra damage, but it only did like 1-3 points extra normally..

EDIT: laughing like hell at what you just said banebow

Jenosavel · Oct 30, 2005, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Tactics only has a few truly useful skills, and those only apply to pure tanks. On the other hand, strength not only has skills associated with it, but has the passive benefit of armor penetration as well. If you want to do any kind of damage as a warrior, you need strength. If you want to tank as a warrior, tactics is helpful but not required.

entropy · Oct 30, 2005, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Well That's mainly the pvp mentality. In PvE Tactics all the way but for pvp tactics just about sucks. Also there is strength skills such as sprint for chasing people around the map. Its mainly for pvp.

jonnybegood · Oct 30, 2005, 03:26 PM // 15:26

well dor pvp i use str, because more damage is really noticable in the lower lvls and armors. also endure pain is str baised wich i like in pvp, especialy in CA where you might not have a monk. endure pain is instant(no cast time).also sprint i use alot.

now for pve i will definitly go tact, where as i have a monk that usually does his/her job(i use no PUGs only friends/guildies) that way i can be more defencive as well as offencive, also monsters ar usually higher lvls where str does not make as much of a difference.

Nikki Moonlight · Oct 30, 2005, 03:27 PM // 15:27

name 10 useful strength skills...

jonnybegood · Oct 30, 2005, 03:32 PM // 15:32

endure pain,sprint,IWAY,shield bash,bulls strike,warriors cunning,power attack,battle rage,warriors endurance.

now i ask u plz list 10 tact skills u think are useful.

Nikki Moonlight · Oct 30, 2005, 03:40 PM // 15:40

healing signet, riposte, bonettis defence, victory is mine, to the limit, deadly riposte, watch yourself, balanced stance (essential to all droknar runs), shield stance, thrill of victory....

others may disagree but i think those are most useful..

Santanus_Perro · Oct 30, 2005, 03:46 PM // 15:46

I load up on strength--16 in hammer, 13 in strength, few points left over, but that's fine by me, throw them in tactics for the heck of it. For me, its about knocklocking and spike damage. 16 hammer, 13 strength, and one 5 vampiric hammer haft FTW!!!

I should mention that I do not do any kind of solo farming, that my build is meant for team pve and pvp.

Jenosavel · Oct 30, 2005, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

also monsters ar usually higher lvls where str does not make as much of a difference.

...no. If I understand math correctly, the higher your enemy's armor level is, the higher the armor penetration boost should be, since armor penetration works on a percentage. 10% armor penetration against an AL 100 is a whopping 10 AL your enemy loses. 10% armor penetration against a AL 30 is a miniscule 3 AL your enemy loses.

For everyone else who can't see the use of strength, here is my understanding. The main reason I prefer strength to tactics is that the main defensive force Tactics offers is in the form of stances with a very long down times and which can not be used in conjunction with an active offense (most of the good defensive stances end if you use a skill, an adrenal skill, or an attack). The other useful Tactics skills are ones that buff your nearby allies. If you're a competent tank that properly gathers aggro, you should only need to be worrying about buffing yourself, not nearby allies.

I don't know if people miss it or what, but Strength offers Dolyak Signet which is, in my opinion, a much better defensive skill than the Tactics stances. It has a very low down-time, prevents knockdown, and increases your AL. It does have the draw-back of slowing you down, but if you're properly gathered the aggro, you shouldn't be moving around until that aggro's dead anyway. Additionally, you can use it in conjuction with a stance and unload your attacks without fear of ending your defenses prematurely. Lastly, it costs no energy or adrenaline since it's a signet.

Other great skills from the Strength line include: Sprint, Berserker Stance, and Warrior's Cunning. Notice that Berserker Stance could be used with Dolyak Signet to have not only great self-defense but also a hefty offense. Tactics has nothing to compare to the usefulness of Sprint when trying to gather aggro ahead of an ele that wants to tank.

Kampfkeks · Oct 30, 2005, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Weeper

name 10 useful strength skills...

Every skill has its uses and therefore is useful.
The question about Tactics versus Strength is moreover a question about PVE versus PVP.

Tactics is simply the Tank Mentality. Sure it has some nice skills but most of those are tailored towards a tank. I tried a pure Tactics Warrior in PVE and in PVP. While he was King in PVE he was kinda useless in PVP. No one needs a tank there and the rare duel situations aren't worth speccing on Tactics.

Strength is the Damage Mentality. The Skills in this line are mostly there to overcome obstacles thrown at you. Like Warriors Cunning cutting through most of the typical warrior hate. And on top of that, thanks to the Dolyak Signet the Strength based warriors are yet still capable of tanking. I tried a Strength based Warrior in PVE and in PVP. He still did quite good as a Tank in PVE but he did a lot more than before in PVP.
So by going Strength on your Warrior you're on the safe side when you plan to PVP anytime soon.

Tactics has more uses when used in a secondary class. Which warrior honestly needs Bonettis Defense? Yet it is an awesome skill for your average Monkfarmer.

/edit:
Besides:
PVP has a very nasty disease. They are called runners. After each Match rest assured that atleast one of the enemy Team will start running to screw your team over.
Go go tactics war! Catch him with your... uhm.. well.. uber.. uhm... well. stand around skills!

Nikki Moonlight · Oct 30, 2005, 03:58 PM // 15:58

i'm not saying strength is useless, but i think its a wasting a slot having a run skill, i mean its only once in a while, and they eventually give in (i had a 20 minute match with a warrior..which was damn irritating...)

jonnybegood · Oct 30, 2005, 04:05 PM // 16:05

yes i played against a warrior in TA, for an hour (screenshots as proof) we fought until he left : )
but me as str and him using 7 stances , we couldnt kill 1 another.

Rancour · Oct 30, 2005, 05:21 PM // 17:21

At the moment I use Tactics, but I'd choose Strength any time, since I like the skills it has to offer. The main problem for me is that I feel forced to use Tactics because 75% of all bloody shield require it. Of course one could say that shield don't mean much and you don't have to meet the requirement. One could also say that I should just go get a strength requirement shield and use that. But here we meet another 2 problems. A) A shield is pretty useless without the requirement and I like to have a functional shield at hand, not just a lump of metal. B) Not only are strength requirement shields rarer than Tactic shields, and therefor costier, but most of them look like #%&¤. Tall shields are my favourites, followed by Crude shields but heck, they both require Tactics! To get a strength requirement shield I have to pay way too much and end up with a shield that looks like it got hit by an ice cream truck!

That's why I'm using Tactics, which I hate. Tactics is a useful line but it depends on how you play. Tactics doesn't at all work for me like strength does. I'd still rather be using strength but I'm pidgeon-holed into using the god-aweful Tactics line if I want a cheap, good looking shield.

Proposition: Make all shields both Tactics/Strength required.

Armor: 16 Req: 9 Tactics/Strength.

If you have 9 strength, you can use it. If you have 9 tactics, you can use it. If you have 9 in both, you wasted attribute points

.

End of rant.

carnivore · Oct 30, 2005, 05:26 PM // 17:26

lol the people here who are arguing for tactics has never played an organized pvp.

tactics is all about defense. nothing more.stances to help you dodge attacks, arrows, and even give armor and energy

strength, has some defense, dolyak, endure pain, warriors endurance, but no one uses strength for that. its for the offense.

now you might say tactics will help you survive, but guess what, no one cares. warriors dont get hit, much less get hit by other warriors in a pvp. if you get hit, you are the last one on your team. period.

and the people buying on strength shields for a lot of money are veterans, i assume, they need the shield for pvp. therefore, they put out more money for it.

Kampfkeks · Oct 30, 2005, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Weeper

i'm not saying strength is useless, but i think its a wasting a slot having a run skill, i mean its only once in a while, and they eventually give in (i had a 20 minute match with a warrior..which was damn irritating...)

Once in a while? Every... and i mean... EVERY match i play people start to run. Most do it in midfight... that is allright. But there is also a damn lot doing it after the fight just to annoy the other team.
However what about the monks running midfight? Well most simply tank the damage but some love doing rounds around the block for a long while. And have you ever played against Runners? Uhm sorry, i mean rangers? They ALLWAYS start running. I have yet to meet a ranger that doesn't try the "catch me ollololoool!" method.
Not going with a speed buff or a ranged snare is like going in without a res signet. You might be lucky not to need it, but in most cases you WILL need it.

Besides, the speed buff discussion is a bit off topic.

Jenosavel · Oct 30, 2005, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Weeper

i'm not saying strength is useless, but i think its a wasting a slot having a run skill, i mean its only once in a while, and they eventually give in (i had a 20 minute match with a warrior..which was damn irritating...)

In PvP, Sprint is the furthest thing from a wasted slot. As a warrior with non-armor-ignoring attacks, you should be attacking soft targets first, and any soft target with a brain won't just sit there and let you wail on them. Sprint helps ensure you are unloading the maximum number of attacks while your opponent attempts to lose you.

Since it doesn't seem like too many are questioning Strength's usefulnes in PvP (thankfully), the following is in regards to PvE only.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnybegood

endure pain,sprint,IWAY,shield bash,bulls strike,warriors cunning,power attack,battle rage,warriors endurance.

now i ask u plz list 10 tact skills u think are useful.

Endure Pain is a skill that only buys you a small bit of time. After it ends you lose that health anyways, so this skill only delays the inevitable. There's no reason to use this skill over any of the others that increase armor (or provide evasion) instead of just hp.
IWAY is a pretty useless skill except for in very precise circumstances. If you're a good PvE tank, you shouldn't be having dead allies.
Shield Bash it protects against one single attack... I would almost relegate this to the same useless stance pile as Riposte and Deadly Riposte, except that it has a chance to disable a skill. The chances that the next thing use on you will be a skill rather than a normal attack while you're under heavy fire are very low though, so I really wouldn't use this one.
Bull's Strike how often in PvE do your enemies run away?
Battle Rage makes you lose all adrenaline when it ends, which can be really crippling to the offense it's supposed to help. There are much better options to use your elite slot on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Weeper

healing signet, riposte, bonettis defence, victory is mine, to the limit, deadly riposte, watch yourself, balanced stance (essential to all droknar runs), shield stance, thrill of victory....

others may disagree but i think those are most useful..

Healing Signet I find to be a very bad trade off. When under heavy fire, such a huge decrease in armor level will definitely make you take enough extra damage to not be worth the health it gives back. In essence, Healing Sig is a skill that will backfire when you need it most.
Riposte only protects you from one single attack. It only does average damage, but I guess it has the plus of being usable in conjuction with a stance. I still don't feel its worth a skill slot, personally.
Victory is Mine is a good skill, but I don't feel it compares to the other options you have for Elites. Thus, I still wouldn't use it.
Watch Yourself is very nice, but shouldn't be necessary. As the tank, you should be the only one taking damage. I'd rather plan to be the only one taking damage and put my skill slots to use accordingly, than plan for a worst case scenario and have wasted slots if I do my job right.
Balanced Stance is a very, very nice skill. It's unfortunate one would have to waste points in Tactics to use it though. Under most circumstances (Drok's runs not included), Dolyak Signet will do as much and more for you as Balanced Stance would.
Shield Stance has an awesome effect, but a horrendous down-time. At least 66% of the time it will be unusable.
Thrill of Victory is an attack, and its a skill, which means it will end the vast majority of the tactics stances. On its own, its a slightly stronger, but highly conditional version of the strength-based Power Attack. Both skills really shouldn't be used over attack skills from your weapon attribute, because you really should be having the most attribute points in your weapon attribute. That alone will make the weapon-linked attacks stronger.

What it all boils down to is that if you want to be a pure tank and do little to no damage, Tactics will be your heaven on Earth. If you want to both tank and drop enemies, then Strength offers you a better choice. Since it does more, strength will be a more often used attribute, and as such, the sheilds which require Strength will be more sought after.

Oct 30, 2005, 03:08 PM // 15:08	#1
Nikki Moonlight Krytan Explorer Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Brighton, England Guild: Ice Cold Elements [ICE] Profession: Mo/	Strength over Tactics? why?! why do i see everyone saying "if that shield was str based instead it'd sell a lot more" and stuff along those lines when IMO Tactics is superior to Strength in everyway, more stances, healing signet, more shouts, and easier to survive with, i just don't get the fuss over Strength

Oct 30, 2005, 05:26 PM // 17:26	#18
carnivore Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Jul 2005 Profession: W/	lol the people here who are arguing for tactics has never played an organized pvp. tactics is all about defense. nothing more.stances to help you dodge attacks, arrows, and even give armor and energy strength, has some defense, dolyak, endure pain, warriors endurance, but no one uses strength for that. its for the offense. now you might say tactics will help you survive, but guess what, no one cares. warriors dont get hit, much less get hit by other warriors in a pvp. if you get hit, you are the last one on your team. period. and the people buying on strength shields for a lot of money are veterans, i assume, they need the shield for pvp. therefore, they put out more money for it. Last edited by carnivore; Oct 30, 2005 at 05:30 PM // 17:30.. Reason: wow, so many mis-types

Oct 30, 2005, 03:20 PM // 15:20	#3
Dragon Worm Academy Page Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: New Jersy Guild: The Beastly Dragon Lords Profession: R/	Myabe its because strength helps u do more dmg and people think if strength helps u do more dmg that itll help protect them more, or because evry warrior uses strength

Oct 30, 2005, 03:22 PM // 15:22	#4
Banebow Krytan Explorer Join Date: Aug 2005 Guild: [KoA] Knights of the Alliance Profession: Me/	Probably because of the whole warrior attitude of needing to do a lot of damage (you know the kind: "Me Smash!", monk: "I need energy!", warrior: "Chaaaarge!" strength makes you do slightly more damage when using attack skills) or, if they plan on using their pve character in pvp, strength is usualy prefered to tactics.

Oct 30, 2005, 03:24 PM // 15:24	#6
Jenosavel Master of Beasts Join Date: Jul 2005 Guild: Servants of Fortuna [SoF] Profession: R/	Tactics only has a few truly useful skills, and those only apply to pure tanks. On the other hand, strength not only has skills associated with it, but has the passive benefit of armor penetration as well. If you want to do any kind of damage as a warrior, you need strength. If you want to tank as a warrior, tactics is helpful but not required.

Oct 30, 2005, 03:25 PM // 15:25	#7
entropy Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Jun 2005 Profession: N/W	Well That's mainly the pvp mentality. In PvE Tactics all the way but for pvp tactics just about sucks. Also there is strength skills such as sprint for chasing people around the map. Its mainly for pvp.

Oct 30, 2005, 03:26 PM // 15:26	#8
jonnybegood Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: huh? Guild: The Final Exodus[FX]	well dor pvp i use str, because more damage is really noticable in the lower lvls and armors. also endure pain is str baised wich i like in pvp, especialy in CA where you might not have a monk. endure pain is instant(no cast time).also sprint i use alot. now for pve i will definitly go tact, where as i have a monk that usually does his/her job(i use no PUGs only friends/guildies) that way i can be more defencive as well as offencive, also monsters ar usually higher lvls where str does not make as much of a difference.

Oct 30, 2005, 03:27 PM // 15:27	#9
Nikki Moonlight Krytan Explorer Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Brighton, England Guild: Ice Cold Elements [ICE] Profession: Mo/	name 10 useful strength skills...

Oct 30, 2005, 03:32 PM // 15:32	#10
jonnybegood Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: huh? Guild: The Final Exodus[FX]	endure pain,sprint,IWAY,shield bash,bulls strike,warriors cunning,power attack,battle rage,warriors endurance. now i ask u plz list 10 tact skills u think are useful.

Oct 30, 2005, 03:40 PM // 15:40	#11
Nikki Moonlight Krytan Explorer Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Brighton, England Guild: Ice Cold Elements [ICE] Profession: Mo/	healing signet, riposte, bonettis defence, victory is mine, to the limit, deadly riposte, watch yourself, balanced stance (essential to all droknar runs), shield stance, thrill of victory.... others may disagree but i think those are most useful..

Oct 30, 2005, 03:46 PM // 15:46	#12
Santanus_Perro Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scott Township, PA Guild: Iron Rangers Profession: W/Mo	I load up on strength--16 in hammer, 13 in strength, few points left over, but that's fine by me, throw them in tactics for the heck of it. For me, its about knocklocking and spike damage. 16 hammer, 13 strength, and one 5 vampiric hammer haft FTW!!! I should mention that I do not do any kind of solo farming, that my build is meant for team pve and pvp.

Oct 30, 2005, 03:58 PM // 15:58	#15
Nikki Moonlight Krytan Explorer Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Brighton, England Guild: Ice Cold Elements [ICE] Profession: Mo/	i'm not saying strength is useless, but i think its a wasting a slot having a run skill, i mean its only once in a while, and they eventually give in (i had a 20 minute match with a warrior..which was damn irritating...)

Oct 30, 2005, 04:05 PM // 16:05	#16
jonnybegood Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: huh? Guild: The Final Exodus[FX]	yes i played against a warrior in TA, for an hour (screenshots as proof) we fought until he left : ) but me as str and him using 7 stances , we couldnt kill 1 another.

Oct 30, 2005, 05:21 PM // 17:21	#17
Rancour Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Camp Rancor (Rancour :D) Guild: I'm a free spirit (that's not what the guild is called, I just am) Profession: W/R	At the moment I use Tactics, but I'd choose Strength any time, since I like the skills it has to offer. The main problem for me is that I feel forced to use Tactics because 75% of all bloody shield require it. Of course one could say that shield don't mean much and you don't have to meet the requirement. One could also say that I should just go get a strength requirement shield and use that. But here we meet another 2 problems. A) A shield is pretty useless without the requirement and I like to have a functional shield at hand, not just a lump of metal. B) Not only are strength requirement shields rarer than Tactic shields, and therefor costier, but most of them look like #%&¤. Tall shields are my favourites, followed by Crude shields but heck, they both require Tactics! To get a strength requirement shield I have to pay way too much and end up with a shield that looks like it got hit by an ice cream truck! That's why I'm using Tactics, which I hate. Tactics is a useful line but it depends on how you play. Tactics doesn't at all work for me like strength does. I'd still rather be using strength but I'm pidgeon-holed into using the god-aweful Tactics line if I want a cheap, good looking shield. Proposition: Make all shields both Tactics/Strength required. Armor: 16 Req: 9 Tactics/Strength. If you have 9 strength, you can use it. If you have 9 tactics, you can use it. If you have 9 in both, you wasted attribute points . End of rant.